We’ve had a rocky relationship with the Fedora community on the show. We’ve spent a fair bit of time praising Fedora (our almost ridiculous amount of praise for Fedora Core 6, bordering on “love fest”, springs to mind), but we’ve also talked about where we felt Fedora needed the most improvement (often times this focuses on look and feel).
Unfortunately the Fedora project seems unable to take criticism.
Let’s do a comparison with Ubuntu here, shall we? (This makes sense to me seeing as Fedora vs Ubuntu seems to be a comparison Fedora wants right now.)
Over the years we have criticized Ubuntu (some might say rather harshly). The lack of Compiz/Beryl (which they fixed). The ugly brown theme (which they have not).
But, no matter what, they take the criticism. And are grown up about it.
But Fedora? They take the approach of a rebellious teenager and declare that we simply don’t understand.
We say we don’t like the default themes? They respond with “Nuh-uh! I talked to a guy who likes it so you’re wrong!”
We talk about a specific bug (or set of bugs) we encounter? They respond with “Did you submit an official bug report? If not then you shouldn’t even be reviewing Fedora and we won’t fix it!” (Seriously. This actually happened.)
We mention that some of the features in their latest release are ones we already saw in the last Ubuntu release. They proclaim, “But we did it first! Not fair! You don’t understand!”
(There’s this thread here on the Fedora marketting email list that I found interesting). A few choice quotes from some messages in this thread:
“I get the feeling, though, from having listened to LAS for quite a while, that these guys are far more interested in superficialities than the work that actually goes into free software.”
Discard the critique by declaring that the reviewers not understand “the work that actually goes into free software”. I don’t mind the, obviously intentional, negative tone and insinuation here… but the fact that this implies that the writer of that message is not interested in addressing the actual criticism? Lame.
“Another point that had me scratching my head was the same host indicating that Fedora had a lot of features that were in Ubuntu 8.10. This is certainly true, but the differentiator is that many of these features were *built* by Fedora contributors, inside and outside Red Hat. It’s important for us to keep emphasizing this fact.”
If you are interested in this particular topic, I recommend following the thread. I have a few things I want to point out here:
- Who developed a specific feature doesn’t matter at all when it comes to looking at the quality of the final system that it resides in. If Ubuntu had a feature first… they had it first. Done. End of story.
- Are we, or are we not, talking about GPL’d software here? If a Fedora dev makes a new application… but Ubuntu ships with it first… so what? That’s just the way it goes with free software. Or does the Fedora project not consider itself part of the larger free software / Linux community?
“the LAS guys are *very* tough customers when it comes to artwork.”
We have praised many, many aspects of Fedora (including the artwork) on several episodes. We’ve, repeatedly praised the artwork and look/feel of Linux Minut, KDE4, etc. We are not tough at all. But we do expect excellence from projects that claim to be the largest linux distro in the world.
We have been on your side here Fedora. We’ve encouraged many people to switch to Fedora. If you guys can’t take criticism (which it is, by the way, our role to give as members of the media) from us, then you need to stop making Fedora a public system.
If you really want to make sure people think you are the most used Linux desktop distro out there… then you need to start acting like it.
Here’s just a few things that will help out the Fedora project tremendously:
- Get your public story straight. Are you for pro users? consumers? Developers? Kiosks? Servers? All of the above? Be specific on your goals and convey them to the public in a short, concise way.
- Take criticism. Just take it. You don’t have to agree with it, but (especially when it comes from a source like the Linux Action Show who is so obviously here to promote us all) at least understand that, whatever the criticism is, it is a viewpoint/experience others will have. And you need to either address it or accept it.
- Perception is important. And how Fedora 10 looks is like a strange mix between Windows 2000 and an oddly colored childrens toy. Odd, contrasting blues. Just… It looks old and cheap. The default look and feel is VITAL to how you are perceived to the rest of the world. Fix this.
I’m not going to sugar coat things for you. If you want to be the king of the Linux distros… man up.
If I sound a smidge on the annoyed side… it’s because I am.
November 25th, 2008 - 2:43 am
Great write-up. It’s a shame that they don’t take criticism as constructive criticism. I have listened to everything you have said about Fedora in the many LAS shows you have mentioned them, and it is never harsh. It is just you guys showing tough love to the project. I’m sorry but, Fedora, if you are going to keep talking about how you wrote the software Ubuntu is using, by golly, implement it better than them. ITS YOUR SOFTWARE ! I love Ubuntu, and I love Fedora. Fedora 10, you rock! Just polish that rock some more.
November 25th, 2008 - 3:15 am
How can we as a community improve if the largest distribution does not like criticism. Ubuntu, Slackware, and Fedora get their fair share, some just take it better.
November 25th, 2008 - 3:56 am
I have a feeling, you don’t like the community, but you like the os.
pick one, the community doesn’t really care what you think either way. last time I checked, center of the universe… was ME.
November 25th, 2008 - 6:56 am
I can sympathize with you on some of your dealings with Fedora. In addition, I was disgusted with Fedora’s Paul Frields childish comments on user numbers of another distro. Please, don’t talk up your own distro prior to release day while bagging another, that’s not the way. Hmmmm….this behaviour is representative of your post.
That being said, even though I don’t use Fedora, technically it is a good distro, it’s just what’s around it that doesn’t gel with me.
November 25th, 2008 - 7:05 am
Just one more comment. I didn’t realize that that Fedora person you quoted above was the same Paul Frields that made that comment I just mentioned above. Paul, being Fedora Project Leader, has to become more mature on taking criticism and more aware of whats coming out of his mouth while in that position.
November 25th, 2008 - 8:28 am
By the way giving credit where its due isnt such a bad idea.
I understand that who made what doesnt have any effect on the quality of fedora or ubuntu and that GPL allows for one distro to use all the code created by another but still its human nature to feel wronged when someone else is using your work without even mentioning you.
I always find it irritating when ubuntu comes out and the press releases mention the new features (like the new network manager , which correct me if i am wrong, is made by the fedora community) as if canonical was the one who created them.Someone who doesnt understand how this process workd might very well think that.
Even worse is that the very few “original” features that were promised by ubuntu like the new theme or the 3D login manager get pushed back to the next release for years now , leading me to believe that the ubuntu people are content with using other peoples work and that doing their own work is just “too much work” for them
I know that my point is a bit off topic but still i wanted to say this for a while and this looked like a good opportunity.
PS
I know canonican isnt making any money off ubuntu and all about upstart etc but i feel my point still stands
November 25th, 2008 - 8:43 am
Oh and even though i hate it when people do that , i am going to do it too
I am an ubuntu user and in the past i ve defended ubuntu when i felt it was right
you can read the first post on my blog where people accuse me of being an ubuntu fanboy !
November 25th, 2008 - 9:02 am
Your criticism of Fedora are about your personal tastes. These do not qualify as criticism; it’s just your opinion.
As for finding bugs, Fedora is right. You should file bug reports if you have found bugs you believe to be persistent across all Fedora installs…otherwise they cannot be assigned to a developer to be fixed.
And as for LAS’s credibility? I seem to recall a certain distro called “Jupiter”….I wonder if anyone would like to review that? Let’s face it, guys, you are a lot of talk and very little else.
November 25th, 2008 - 12:03 pm
I think these comments are somewhat disheartening to all the people who worked very hard to create all these features.
For example deciding on the artwork was a long and difficult process eventually decided democratically. Coming along and saying that you don’t like the artwork and then being surprised that no one jumps up and scraps it for a completely different design is tantamount to me being surprised that the United States decided to carry on with its president despite my rant in the pub stating that he is an idiot.
Describing other features as simply copies of ones in Ubuntu is even worse as it is taking their hard work and crediting someone completely unrelated. I don’t know if you ever tried it but developing features for a modern operating system is an incredibly hard task to agree on the direction of a project. Each complaint requires a formal feedback system to go through. You simply cannot get a group of developers to spontaneously agree to change something on the back of a flame on an unrelated site.
November 25th, 2008 - 12:24 pm
Still fedora still has the same ugly blue like windows.
November 25th, 2008 - 2:33 pm
Kostas:
Your point definitely stands. Appreciated.
jipped:
“Your criticism of Fedora are about your personal tastes. These do not qualify as criticism; it’s just your opinion.” -jipped
… So… criticisms that can be in any way considered an opinion or taste… is automatically disregarded? That’s… ridiculous.
“And as for LAS’s credibility? I seem to recall a certain distro called “Jupiter”….I wonder if anyone would like to review that? Let’s face it, guys, you are a lot of talk and very little else.” -jipped
Again… instead of take criticism… attack the person/people giving the critique and quickly disregard it.
Charlie:
“I think these comments are somewhat disheartening to all the people who worked very hard to create all these features.” - Charlie
Yep. Very likely. But that doesn’t mean the comments are unwelcome. And, again, I’m not going to sugar coat this. There is a very real, and very important, issue here. And I’m not the only one who sees it.
“Coming along and saying that you don’t like the artwork and then being surprised that no one jumps up and scraps it for a completely different design…” - Charlie
That would be an entirely different thing.
What I’m disappointed at is the Fedora projects inability to handle criticism and something as simple as “the media reviewing it” without acting like a toddler.
I’ve blasted Ubuntu for their excessive brown usage for years. Have they changed it? Nope. But they’ve also been grown up about it.
November 25th, 2008 - 3:41 pm
jipped: His own personal taste is indeed criticism and is very important. If one person has that opinion, you can bet a whole lot of other people have it too.
About the artwork:
The democratic committee approach for artwork simply doesn’t work. The people paying attention to the process are made up mostly of those people who submitted work; many times each person is attached to his own work and thinks it is quite good. Additionally, even if a person internally acknowledges that another piece is better, he still doesn’t want to see his work go to waste, so he votes for it. What you need is one person making the decisions to what goes in. Pick someone (preferably someone who is not doing much of the actual artwork, I think) whose taste you agree with or whose taste you believe many others will appreciate and let him make the tough decisions. This person must also be a good leader: he must be able to reject work without alienating the submitters and be able to make people want to keep striving for his approval.
November 25th, 2008 - 3:50 pm
Since I work in the Fedora Art team, I will address the part about themes: we hear from a lot of people (and reviewers) that they don’t like the default theme. But also we hear for an equal, or maybe greater number of people (and reviewers) that they like the theme. Some say it is the best thing in the release…
What can we do from here? We understand this is a subjective opinion and that we can’t please everyone. Learn from the feedback (like the theme from Fedora 9 was changed at the last minute due to the negative feedback) and try to do our best.
November 25th, 2008 - 3:54 pm
Ya know, you guys need to lay off the artwork theme.
Last time I checked you guys aren’t art critics - and neither am I.
Heck, I like Ubuntu brown. And you know what, lots of other people do too. Majority or minority? Darned if I know - and you don’t either!
Perception is important.
Yes, it is, but YOUR perception isn’t necessarily the final word and as representative of the whole universe you think it is. I gotta tell ya, it comes off as arrogant.
Even that aside, I don’t think your perception of the theme is worth the time you spend on it whatever distro you are reviewing…. (I’m definitely NOT saying you pick favourites). Mention it and move on, rather than picking fights over it.
November 25th, 2008 - 4:27 pm
@Bryan
Do you really believe that your opinion should be a deciding factor in a distribution’s design? Do you believe Ubuntu has “grown up about” their brown theme because of you? If you do not do anything to contribute to a project, then you don’t have a whole lot to talk about, do you? Show us where you have come up with ideas about alternatives for any of your complaints.
Linux is a community effort. Sitting on the sidelines complaining that it’s just not good enough does no good. We all know Linux can improve. But it’s up to each of us to do whatever we can to improve it. Pick a project you care about and contribute code. Or a design or mock up. The reason “Fedora” may not be taking your critique well is because you are not doing anything to help. You simply sit around telling them that they are not any good. Great. Thanks. The power of Linux is that you can do something about it. Now go do something, or pipe down.
November 25th, 2008 - 4:58 pm
[...] team’s poor communication. I won’t rehash it all in this post, I’d just rather direct you to Bryan’s Blog post regarding the matter I think he covered it [...]
November 25th, 2008 - 6:51 pm
@jipped
What exactly do you think a review is? Being part of the media and reviewing a product does not mean in anyway that one must contribute to that product or their review is invalid. Do C|Net or ZDNet or Walt Mossberg contribute bug reports to operating systems or applications that they review? No, most likely not. Does that invalidate their review. Absolutely not. It is a review. Reviews, unless otherwise stated, are generally given from the stand point of a non-technical user. That’s the whole point: to help non-technical people, as well as new users coming to the software, make an informed decision.
By your logic, no one should ever be able to review software, ever, if they don’t contribute bug reports. That is as moronic and wrong-headed as one can get. Further, if a criticism in a review centers around bad artwork or horrible UI design, that’s not a bug, it’s just poor design. Yes, if your criticism is “Pulse Audio doesn’t work because of X,” then that is probably a bug. But reviewers have no obligation to file bug reports. If you hear the report and you happen to be a Pulse Audio dev, maybe you should look into it. How the hell is a statement of a problem in a review any different from filing a formal bug report if the people who make the software are reading or listening to the review?
Reviewing software creates absolutely no obligation to file bug reports or otherwise contribute to said software.
November 25th, 2008 - 7:11 pm
This is the kind of conversation the open source community needs to have. At the moment Linux is still a geek toy. If we want to take over the world we need products that aren’t just bug free but also nice and shinny looking.
When Apple released the iPod there were other mp3 players on the market. In the blink of an eye the iPod became the mp3 player everyone wanted. Why?
I believe it took over because Apple added “nice and shiny” to a product line that was kind of boring. Other mp3 players would play music but they didn’t have the cool look and feel of an iPod.
All open source software should have a little bit of “nice and shiny”.
November 25th, 2008 - 8:15 pm
@ jipped:
Wow, man. You just pretty much proved everything Bryan was trying to say. Too many people in the FOSS world have the point of view of “if you don’t like it, fix it yourself!” I can appreciate where that comes from - plenty of developers are overworked, or they’re working on these projects in their free time, and the code is GPL’d so anyone can tweak it. I get it. But it’s really not the right attitude to take.
Just because someone doesn’t know how to write code (or doesn’t know the predominant language, or doesn’t have the time, whatever) doesn’t mean their critique is worthless. Same goes for artwork. Just because I’m not very creative and don’t know how to make SVG’s doesn’t mean I don’t know how to point out bad artwork (or artwork used in a nonintuitive manner).
I’m going to simplify things a bit to try and make my point a little clearer. Here’s how things have been going:
Bryan: “I have an issue with [something]”
You: “Too bad. Yours is not the most important opinion.”
If you guys want to keep to yourselves and pretty much be a developers distro, that’s fine. But make that clear. If you guys want to strive for excellence and be the market-share leader, then you should try and open up a PRODUCTIVE dialog with reviewers.
November 26th, 2008 - 12:21 am
Jeffro:
I am not with Fedora. I do not represent them in any way. Bryan, however, is a programmer, as he has stated many times on his blog. So my feeling that he should contribute in some way is not at all presumptuous.
Furthermore, his complaints are opinions, and yet he seems to treat this as if though there are verifiable problems that he sees needing to be fixed but Fedora won’t fix them. This isn’t the case; he has not filed bugs against any real “fixable” issues, he’s just complaining about the look and feel of the distribution. And if he doesn’t like that, let him theme it differently. But ever since Fedora 8 he has been harshly criticizing the distro and the community as if though he is right and they are wrong, and I do not believe this is worth anyone’s time. He has established that he dislikes Fedora. Move on. Stop reviewing it, because they aren’t reviews any more, they’re just flames.
November 26th, 2008 - 12:41 am
jipped:
Just to be clear… I’ve repeatedly talked about (in reviews) bugs in Fedora that had nothing to do with look and fee. These were predominantly related to installer issues.
Also, again in the interest of clarity, I have no issue with the Fedora Project not fixing the problems I find (If you follow either the show… or, heck, re-read this very post… that would be clear). I do, however, have a problem with a distribution that claims to be the biggest on the planet acting like rebellious teenagers whenever criticized. This hurts Fedora… and hurts Linux in general.
And, just because someone is in a particular profession does not mean that they should immediately spend their time on every project they ever look at.
I’m not a member of the Fedora Project. But that does not mean that I cannot have an opinion on it. In fact it would be silly for me to become a member of the project. I need to stay impartial and unbiased as much as possible.
November 26th, 2008 - 5:51 pm
Bryan, I think you are very much in your right to have opinions, but there are however certain things I would like to clarify:
Who is Fedora for?
In my opinion it’s for the user that want the latest and greatest of free software, built on a stable base, with a knowledgeable community.
Fedora’s theme is ugly!
Well, that actually is a matter of personal preference.
Fedora people won’t take my complaints seriously!
That’s because it’s geared towards people who want to help fix issues. It’s very much a help-thy-community kind of distro. It shouldn’t always be compared to Ubuntu because of this.
Because Fedora is ahead of Ubuntu and other big distro’s most of the time, helping Fedora is helping the community.
I agree with some of your complaints, but I’m not interested in being on the “let’s-conquer-the-world” bandwagon of Ubuntu. I want the latest and greatest with the very knowledgeable people of the Red Hat/Fedora community, and I don’t mind fixing some minor things myself, and to be honest, Fedora has proven more stable on my computers than Ubuntu.
I’m kinda of the opinion that Fedora doesn’t need to be reviewed, just like Slackware. People who choose to go the Fedora route probably do this because they have read up on the Fedora wiki about the new features.
Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s my right after all.
I enjoy your blog though Bryan, even if I think Fedora is a pretty misunderstood distro.
November 26th, 2008 - 9:23 pm
jipped:
okay, you’re not part of the Fedora team. My mistake. Doesn’t really change anything, though. Fact of the matter is, even though Bryan’s “opinions” may not be at the top of the priority list, you and the Fedora team seem to have a crap-ass attitude about it.
November 26th, 2008 - 11:17 pm
@FURICLE
“Ya know, you guys need to lay off the artwork theme. Last time I checked you guys aren’t art critics - and neither am I.”
What’s that old saying? Oh yeah….. I don’t know art, but I know what I like. When do yo have to be an art critic to say that you don’t like a theme?
“Heck, I like Ubuntu brown. And you know what, lots of other people do too. Majority or minority? Darned if I know - and you don’t either!”
Wow… hang on… you said you like the Ubuntu theme, but you previously said that you weren’t an art critic? People are allowed to say if they like something or not. Personally, I too am fond of the brown theme, so don’t think I’m criticizing you free will and choice with this response.
@ARBULUS
“Reviewing software creates absolutely no obligation to file bug reports or otherwise contribute to said software.”
You are the most correct person on the planet. I want to have your babies (although that may be difficult being a man).
@BRYAN
Agree with what you’re saying about the inability of Fedora to accept criticism (they seem to do just fine with praise though…), and some of the responses here prove this beyond doubt. I guess it all comes down to one basic principal: if you don’t like it, don’t use it. I know you have/want to review the Fedora release and that it fine, but I hope that you’ve chosen not to install it anywhere for day-to-day use.
In conclusion: stubborn people are hard to change, so forget about them. Don your flame-retardant suite and let them shout all they want. They are only hurting their own project.
November 26th, 2008 - 11:42 pm
@JOHAN
“I’m kinda of the opinion that Fedora doesn’t need to be reviewed, just like Slackware.”
I’m a bit confused what you mean here Johan. Anyone can review anything - especially a Linux distribution that is being provided to the public! I don’t see how something “doesn’t need a review” or can’t be reviewed if it is something given to you.
@JIPPED
“The reason “Fedora” may not be taking your critique well is because you are not doing anything to help. You simply sit around telling them that they are not any good. Great. Thanks. The power of Linux is that you can do something about it. Now go do something, or pipe down.”
Yeah Bryan, why don’t you contribute back to the community more. Don’t include the hundreds of hours of Podcasts that you’ve released that promote, discuss and review Linux, nor all the production or editing time that went into those Podcasts. Why? Because they don’t directly contribute back to Fedora. You could have opened like a bazillion bugs with all that time. Non-code and Non-Fedora contributions are just silly.
(end of over the top sarasm)
I’d love for Jipped to explain to my grandmother that she shouldn’t complain about problems in her Fedora install without first triaging and writing a patch for bugs she encounters when using an ATI graphics card; then, and only then, should she be allowed to say anything remotely disparaging about her distribution of choice.
Good luck - my grandmother knows kung fu and will happily tell you why that’s not the case.
(some of the above may not be factually correct)
November 27th, 2008 - 6:59 pm
@Nick
What I meant was that the purpose for reading reviews, in my experience, is to decide if you want to try something or not. I think Fedora attracts users on a pure this-technology-is-here-and-this-is-what-we-stand-for basis, not the “TOP 10 MOST AWESOME FEATURES IN THE NEW FEEEEEEDOOOOORA” approach of many reviews.
I want to take the time to argue with you about this too:
“I’d love for Jipped to explain to my grandmother that she shouldn’t complain about problems in her Fedora install without first triaging and writing a patch for bugs she encounters when using an ATI graphics card; then, and only then, should she be allowed to say anything remotely disparaging about her distribution of choice.”
Fedora isn’t your typical grandma distro. It’s been a long time since I last thought of Fedora as a competitor of Ubuntus. It’s a whole different thing, aimes at people who want to contribute, or help, or just run the latest and greatest.
November 27th, 2008 - 10:26 pm
@JOHAN
“What I meant was that the purpose for reading reviews, in my experience, is to decide if you want to try something or not. I think Fedora attracts users on a pure this-technology-is-here-and-this-is-what-we-stand-for basis, not the “TOP 10 MOST AWESOME FEATURES IN THE NEW FEEEEEEDOOOOORA” approach of many reviews.”
Agree with you, but you can’t exactly say that the LAS reviews are of the “Top 10″ type (the faster they die, the better the interwebs will be), and definitely focus on the technologies, features and general user experience.
“Fedora isn’t your typical grandma distro …. It’s a whole different thing, aims at people who want to contribute, or help, or just run the latest and greatest”
Ok, I never thought I’d actually say this, but… replace “my grandmother” with “Bryan” (*shudders* - and maybe drop the “kung fu” part), or with any of the other 99.9% of the population whom also can’t help/contribute in a lot of cases yet Fedora invites to be users of their system. I can’t imagine that Fedora would be turning away users that are not interested in the latest and greatest technologies, and just want a Linux system that works.
They need to learn to take reviews on board - both the good and bad - and evaluate whether they should be doing something in those case. They don’t necessarily need to change or implement stuff if they believe that what they are doing is right. They also don’t need to act arrogantly and tell users they are wrong if their view of Fedora is not what they want it to be.
December 1st, 2008 - 8:09 am
Fedora it is just a beta of RedHat.
Debian rulles!
December 6th, 2008 - 6:11 pm
@ et allii
Dear Sirs:
Thank you for your interest in the Fedora Project line.
We have received much comment and opinion on the recent release and appreciate you having taken the time to write us with your views.
We hope to continue to provide you with cutting edge features in future advanced distributions.
Sincerely,
December 7th, 2008 - 5:53 am
I just posted on your Jupiter forum and was reading through the comments here. Then I decided to look through the links above that go to the mailing list. The mere fact that they discuss your opinions in the mailing list PROVES that they are taking your criticisms seriously. After all, I DON’T see any of them bashing you! They just mention that your a tough critic and that as part of their marketing, they need to emphasize that they are inventing a lot of new technologies. So what are you complaining about again?
December 8th, 2008 - 4:12 pm
Just to be clear, I think, Bryan correct me if I am wrong, anything you say if it is negative or positive is ultimately to make the Distro the best one you think it can be. You are just offering your opinion to better the Distro, if it is Ubuntu or Fedora, you really don’t care you just want Linux to do what is best for Linux. I cant see why any Distro would have a problem with any criticisms or praise for that matter.
I think the real thing Fedora needs to watch out for is not to sound to much like Microsoft when faced with criticism. So far their response has been pretty close to what you would see from a large company that primarily ignores the people that use the system. Fedora needs to remember who they are, and more importantly who they are not.
December 31st, 2008 - 11:04 pm
I think that at the end of the day, all this arguing does little good for anyone. Most users couldn’t care less who made what contributions to the system they use. They wouldn’t even care if it was Microsoft. Most users (I don’t mean confirmed *Linux* users, I mean desktop users in general) have not the slightest interest in the Open Source/Free/Livre software concept, Linux, or whatever. All they want is for their iPods and DVD’s to work, and to send cute kitty pictures to their friends.
Ultimately, regardless of the opinion of the tiny minority of knowledgeable users, what will “sell” a distro is its usefulness to the average, non-technical, fairly uninterested user. If a distro is excellent, if it lets them do what they want with their computers, they’ll use it. If not, they’ll gravitate away from it.
My own experience with Fedora has been dismal, but that was years ago. Maybe they’ve cleaned up their act by now. But now I’m using Ubuntu, which does everything I want on every computer I’ve tried it on, with one exception.
That being the case, I have little reason to even try Fedora. I know Ubuntu works. I know Fedora didn’t, back then. I would be trading a sure thing for some unknown. Maybe, if I had lots of time on my hands and a spare computer, I would give Fedora a whirl to see if it was as good as Ubuntu. Maybe it would be lots better. But until then, I’m sticking with Ubuntu (unless it becomes horrible somehow).
@jipped - if you maintain that attitude, then the only people who will use the product are the people who *can* contribute and fix things themselves. So many people complain about the “market share” of Linux being so tiny, but then they tell non-technical people to shut up, go through the code and fix it themselves, file bug reports when they’re not really able to say exactly what the problem is. If you build a product that only a geek can use, then only a geek will use it.
High-handed dismissal of criticisms by people who can’t fix the problems is self-defeating. Any product needs to hear from the *users*, not just from the people who can create or repair the product. Programmers don’t often spend as much time using their programs as their intended users (unless it’s a compiler or something). What looks good to the programmer, what seems sensible and reasonable to them, is often a problem for a user.
Case in point: I do a lot of word processing for a living. There is a product by a certain Large Software Company that inconveniently buries some frequently-used features deep within the menu structure, requiring me to hit several keys to get to it each time I use it. A programmer designed this. A user would never have buried this feature so far down. But this Large Software Company doesn’t listen to its users. Ultimately, it will become a small softwre company.
And so will the distros that belittle or ignore their non-technical users. Or should I say, they’ll *remain* small, because there is not one Linux distro that is large, yet. There’s a reason for that.